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Wednesday, October 27, 2010

Idol worship accusations

On an interesting tramp-ride this morning I heard the complaint that pictures of Rabbis, kissing them etc. is avoda zara according to Torah. I actually agree. I know it is the "standard" procedure, but we Na Nach, do know the limits of "standard procedure". It's obviously a big mistake to imitate the likes of Adolf (A bomb or H bomb) or the crucifiction and put Saba all over the walls. I think the tzaddik has suffered enougth of this nonsense.

We have the "holy of holy" petek in the actual handwriting of the "holiest man that ever walked or breathed" (I even suspect hashem scribbled the last four lines in a reverse upwards direction here). Saba said "a photocopy is like the original". Why not place the document he at least once called "the Moshiah" on every wall. Isn't that following his will without breaking the real "halacha".

I think a major direction change needs to be taken here... we are not such a "big ship" that we cannot change the course while there is still time.

No more pictures of Saba as a symbol or a logo or a poster. Filming the Tzaddik to learn from his illuminated face is meritous, paintings to decorate our houses as one would do with a King is also OK.

Bowing to a King of Israel or any other King is also not allowed according to my new friend. Jewish sign of respect is to kiss the hand- even if he are "dust at the feet" of our teachers. Imagine the scene of an idol worshipping King giving a gift to a son of Israel. When asked to bow, the son of Israel picks up the King's foot and kisses it, knocking over the King. This is a historical event that actually took place does anyone know where and when?


Anonymous said...


Below you write:

"We have the "holy of holy" petek in the actual handwriting of the "holiest man that ever walked or breathed" (I even suspect hashem scribbled the last four lines in a reverse upwards direction here)."

Jesus was the holiest man who ever breathed. And the last time God wrote something on earth was here:

John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

The villager said...

You believe he is G-d. I don't. You are asking me to become Christian. Once it was by the sword remember. Call it quits, I haven't asked you to stop being Christian have I? To you Jesus is without sin, to me, only Josef and Rabbi Nachman to a greater extent, but don't take my word for it.

You need to learn more about Rabbi Nachman and you will see how he teaches you precisely what to do to make Jesus happy- more then any of the authors in the new testament. Rabbi Nachman did not persecute anyone, he was even an environmentalist.

Would Jesus have mocked Rabbi Nachman or would he have studied his books? Answer this question honestly, do not cut corners.

Patrick Ramone said...

I am glad that you wrote this article. I very much admire Chasidism, but was a little concerned that having images of the Rebbe all over the place started to border on idolatry. I hope this is in no way lashon harah, just an observation. It is good to see that others have taken notice. Did G-d not bury Moshe in an unknown place as he knew people would worship him? Please note that I do not think that all people who have an image of a tzaddik are committing idol worshiping.

Anonymous said...

See our entire history of Judaism revered sages were, is a question of honoring the memory of the tzaddik. Try to imagine, the bones of Yosef being led through the desert, this is not idolatry. Unlike JC who is worshiped as a god and if either is the Messiah.

Anonymous said...

to Patrick Ramone - having pictures up is not idol worship its like the same thing how people put up pictures of sons daughters mothers fathers...ect its no different it would be considered idol worship yes if the bow to it and worshiped it. but when it comes to christains who build be statues of "j" like in brazil is the best example and recently in america we see that be statues of "j" was struck by lighting and was burned to the well as islam who bow down to to a rock and The Torah says you shall not set up a rock,statue... in order to bow down and worship it.but anyway having pictures of Tzadik on are walls is not idol worship, its a good thing but you should not set up pictures in front of the place were you pray for it can be considered idol worship. and to the villager - its best not to bow down to pictures of Saba or anyone else seeing that it gives off the wrong look for Nanach and Rabbi Nachman would not want this and breaks the laws of Torah and will bring great pain upon Israel its the one of the reason we were scattered upon the face of the earth because we were chasing after other lands gods and customs and we werent keeping Hashems mitzvahs and idol worship is not the Jewish customs so i advise you to stop bowing down to pictures.

Anonymous said...

Villager writes: "Rabbi Nachman did not persecute anyone, he was even an environmentalist."

From what I have read, RN persecuted the following:

1. The Shpoler Rebbe and his followers

2. Followers of all non-chassidic rabbis and the rabbis themselves.

3. The Vilna Gaon.

4. Followers of Chabad.

RN also harbored mysogynistic ideas about women, teaching the sexual intercourse was an onerous and unpleasant duty even in marriage, teaching men to be neurotically obsessed about seminal emissions even in marital relations, teaching husbands not to work to support their families (as required in a ketubah) but rather to rely solely on prayer, meditation, and if necessary begging.

RN spoke derisively of many other kinds of people as well. It is known that he hated Moslems and Christians as well (his prayer that the cross at the end of the field where he meditated would fall down):

Matthew 5:43-48 (New International Version)

Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[b] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Anonymous said...

And as far as "environmentalism" goes, Orthodox Jews are egregious despoilers of the environment, using disposable plastic plates, cups, utensils, and tablecloths at their many Sabbath meals and Simchas, and wasting up to ten liters per person per day on meaningless handwashings, for a total of perhaps 10 million liters of precious water down the drain every day in a water-starved region.

Mark 7
Clean and Unclean
1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were "unclean," that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[b] 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

Anonymous said...

^ i didnt feel like reading all your stupidity and nonsense but if "j" declared all food to be clean then he is going against the laws of Torah and why would you chose some random guys advice over G-ds commandments? As when it comes to your littering not every Jew uses paper plates and when it comes to america anyway its filled with trash if you look at what christians did to america at one point in the 90s all they did was through the trash into rivers and i remember seeing this when you couldnt even see the rivers all you saw were trash thats when the american government made a big littering banned for environmental reasons.But that was just to make my point everyone does something to harm the environment some may use paper plates more then others and some may watch tv and use electricity more then others the main thing is that we all pitch in and do whatever we can in order to help save are environment and stop blaming one another because the truth is we all have added to the global warming every race every country continent state city..ect so stop blaming others for what were all responsible for

NaaNaach said...

it's good to see the xians getting into Nanach!

The claims that Rabbi Nachman persecuted people are ridiculous. E.G. the claim that R"N persecuted the Vilna Goan, just doesn't make sense, to the best of my knowledge Rabbi Nachman was only about 20 years old when the V"G died. Also the Shpoler Zeide who was a very powerful figure in the Chasidic World when Rabbi Nachman was just beginning to be a public figure, how would Rabbi Nachman persecute him? Also Chabad, on the contrary, Rabbi Nachman went to great self sacrifice to help the first Chabad Rebbe! That leaves only one other instance of "rabbis" maybe you can be a little more specific?

Your claim about R"N teaching men to be neurotically obsessed etc. is the exact opposite from the truth. The other Rabbis were the ones driving themselves crazy with this, Rabbi Nachman taught that one should almost completely ignore the issue, even if one forsure was in the wrong, he should just say the Tikun Haklali, and not give the matter any more thought!

What you say about R"N saying that people shouldn't work is completely not substantiated, can you please provide us with a source? It could be you are confusing R"N with Saba, who'm I have heard said that Nanach don't have to work, we could discuss that once you get your information straight.

Rabbi Nachman definitely spoke derogitively about people and faiths that caused millions of people to be murdered and turtured, and caused hundreds of millions of people to live lives of darkness, oppression, and hatred - just take a look at what was recently exposed in Ireland! - and that's just a drop in the bucket!

Your quotes from people that spread so much sufferring I am unwilling to read, and request that you would be civil and have a little respect and decency not to post here - when's the last time you saw a Jew missionising in a church?

But it's really great to see you getting into Nanach, if you keep at it you will make it B"H!

NaaNaach said...

sorry but I forgot to adress your concerns for the environment. First of all it well known that the Nanach have already done the most environmental cleansing, far more than any other group or movement. Every time we tag a Nanach or put up a sticker outside we have enacted a powerful cleansing plant which effectively cleans the air from pollution, acid rain etc....

But the truth is that anyone who is overly concerned about the environment is lacking even basic faith. Mushiach is coming very soon B"H, and as long as we don't completely abuse the environment, we are going to make it!

But this is something very hard for a non believer to understand, especially if your on an organic food trip .....

Start saying Nanach every day, and more frequently, B"H this will help you a great deal....

Anonymous said...

RN spoke derisively of all the opponents of Breslov. Tzaddik records it all. Jesus teaches that calling a brother "fool" is like murdering him and will send the speaker to hell.

RN also taught his followers to follow a similar path of ridiculing those who disagree with their path. Their attitude is proud, scornful, and arrogant. And that will send them all swiftly to hell.

As for the environment, Israel's record is one of the worst in the world. No recycling, wasting water, an Orthodox man heads the Israeli atomic agency that developed the nuclear weaopons whose radioactive waste pollutes Israel and endangers it citizens. Also the Dimona nuclear program was used to justify radiation experiments on Yemenite and other Sefardic children. Breslovers say nothing about these abuses. Indeed, although RN ridiculed scientists who use their intelligence to develop killing weapons, Breslovers say nothing about this when Jews do it.

Anonymous said...

I do appreciate that you let me post these comments here.

That is a sign that you are a man of truth not afraid of strong dialogue.

Shalom waSalaam et Pace!

Anonymous said...

xtians,musilims...or xtians saying they're musilims...whatever...being a NaNach doesn't mean to be into disputes...there's room for everyone.Just be honest,true and you'll see what R Nachman's teachings really mean.

the mamzer knew well said...

"15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'"

this mamzer should know all about stuff coming out of him that made him unclean with all the zera levatala niuf and kishuf that he did.

Michael said...

Got to love how the Xian missionary speaks of how Yeshu spoke against calling someone a fool and how doing so would send one to hell, when the same NT (Non-Testament) that puts such words in his mouth, also has the very same Yeshu calling the Pharisees and Scribes "fools" (Matthew 23:17). What hypocrisy!

Anonymous said...

Yeshua said not to call one's brother a fool.

The Pharisees were false shepherds herding the flock into hell. They deserved the fiercest rebuke. They were not brothers to the flock at all, but ravaging wolves.

Similar to RN calling the rabbis of his day Shaydim Yehudoyim...

Sound familiar?

If RN could recognize evil then there is hope that his followers also can recognize good, Jesus Yeshua HaMoshiach miNatzrat.

See this from a former IDF intelligence officer who became a Christian:

Michael said...

All Jews are brethren - so the distinction is moot. Whether Yeshu was being made hypocritical by the NT depends on how one interprets "brother", but the hypocrisy was and still remains yours since you used Yeshu's condemnation of calling one's "brother" a fool as an explicit contrast with Rabbeinu's speaking against his opponents, when Yeshu did exactly the same thing, as you now admit. You cannot use Rabbeinu's words as a stick against his status as Tzaddik without striking your own Yeshu with that same stick.

Anonymous said...


good point. Rabbi Nachman comes close to the truth in that he perceives the hypocrisy of the other rabbis. But he also falls under the same condemnation of the Pharisees that Yeshua levelled since like them he places heavy burdens on his followers that they cannot lift. He layers on hitbodedut, reading psalms, dovening at length in shul, and many other good practices on top of the regular orthodox practices of studying talmud and other time consuming things. Rabbi Nachman follows the spiritual advice of Yeshua without being able to leave behind the burdensome and life sapping legalism. This is because he was not great enough to make the break into the freedom of the Messianic Age that Yeshua made, when even the Midrash admits that all the mitzvoth will be batel except for faith, fear, and love of God.

Rabbi Nachman comes close, but still he cannot bring you into the Kingdom of Heaven on earth or after death.

My new title is Singvangelist, or Mevashir in Hebrew.
A combination of Mevaser (Bringer of Good Tidings) and Shir (Song):
מבשר + שיר = מבשיר

Anonymous said...

Do you know the French Na Nach musician Yoel Taib?

I was reading an essay on his website about music and kaballah:

He cites Likutei Moharan, Part II, Paragraph 63 about the song of the shepherd that helps protect the shepherd from descending to animalistic behavior and to cling to the Divine:

Rebbe Nachman of Breslov wrote (Likutei Moharan, Part II, Paragraph 63) that every shepherd has his own unique melody, his own nigun, born of the grass, and the place to where he leads his flock to graze, and so forth. The shepherd himself is benefited by this nigun. This is because spending so much of his time amidst the herd could result in a descent of the shepherd from his standing as man down to the level of beast. The nigun spares him from this descent. The nigun is surely as a spiritual distillation, refining men's spirit from that of the beasts. As the Ramban writes, "There is nothing as subtle within the realm of physicality as music." That is to say, that the nigun is found on the borderline of physicality, at the point of connection with the spiritual. Therefore the nigun is bestowed with the power to raise us from the material and physical to the realm of spirituality; to enable the ascent from the level of beast to the level of human.

But in RN's story The Exchanged Children he teaches about the song of the forest in which all animals are singing praises to God!

In the morning, the Man of the Forest returned and then left again. And they ate and drank there. In the night they heard the voice of the wild beasts, all roaring and howling with their various voices, each one with its unique character: The lion roared, the panther howled in a different voice, and the birds all chirped and twittered with their voices. And so all of them called out with a different voice. At first the men were shocked, and did not listen attentively due to their fear. But afterwards, they turned their ears and heard, that it was a very wondrous voice of song and melody, which was a sublime delight to hear. All of the delights of the world were as nothing, insignificant and annulled, in comparison with the awesome delight of this melody. And they agreed to stay there, for they had enough to eat and drink, and they could enjoy this sublime delight, next to which all other delights were as nothing.

Is this perhaps a contradiction in RN's thinking? (Perhaps Moshe Azizo would like to field this question?!)

Anonymous said...

Anyone who knows anything about shepherding knows that the shepherd sings so the sheep will recognize his voice and follow him. This image is used by both the Old Testament prophets and Yeshua.

Rabbi Nachman turns this around to imply the shepherd sings in order to exhalt himself over the sheep and to denigrate their animalism. This suggests the shepherd actually disdains the sheep and despises them, just the opposite of the compassion and love of the true Shepherd for his sheep.

Rabbi Nachman in this teaching evinces precisely the haughty judgmental and prideful attitude Yeshua condemns in all false shepherds, who use their position to arrogate themselves above the flock and to fleece them for their own benefit and profit.

please Breslover friends!

do not fumble on the goal line!

this is a very sincere and pressing question.

in Likutay Mohoran RN seems to denigrate animals as spiritually inferior to humans.

but in his story The Exchanged Children, he admits that animals are able to sing the song of creation in the forest.

this seems to represent a maturation in his thinking, perhaps brought on by the suffering he endured with tuberculosis as he developed his stories.

Christians always have considered animals to be spiritual. maybe Rabbi Nachman is catching up to us!!!

perhaps RN meant to say in Likutay Mohoran that when a person sings he is elevated to the normal spiritual state that God expects of him, just like the animals who naturally worship God in all that they do. but a person who does not sing spiritual songs is not even at the level of an animal!

Anonymous said...

RN seemed to blow it big time in Le Cutie MOhaRON. the fact is that animals sing and are on a very high spiritual level. when a man sings he is only doing what animals do by nature. Animals and all creatures instinctively worship God. Even RN admits this in telling people to do hitbodedut in the forest where the trees and plants lift up their boughs towards God in heaven.

RN seemed to comprehend this later in life when he was dying of tuberculosis in his story Exchanged Children. There the forest man helps the lost children hear the wondrous spiritual song of the animals. RN saw the truth as he was humbled by illness and suffering.

JESUS IS #1!!!!!!!!!!!

See these quotes:

Anonymous said...

Ezekiel 34
The LORD Will Be Israel’s Shepherd
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Anonymous said...

John 10
The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Anonymous said...

see the teachings here, Amazing Journey from Na Nach to Yay Yaish:

Michael said...

First off, Chazal say that the mitzvot will be nullified in Olam Haba, NOT in Yemei HaMashiach. So, you are WRONG in your claim. Second, all this is the Torah shel be’al peh NOT in the Tanach, and you are acting very hypocritically to uphold the words of Chazal on this point (even in the inaccurate you do it) but to ignore them in other matters – like on whether Yeshu was Mashiach – and to denigrate Chazal in the way you do at the very same time you seek to use their words with authority (AMAZING Chutzpah!). Third, there is absolutely NO way that Yemei HaMashiach began with Yeshu since the Tanach is very clear that Ephraim/Yisrael will be in-gathered into Eretz Yisrael at the time of Mashiach and the renewal of the Brit – something that was NOT the case in Yeshu’s time.

Why do you continue to promote the NT – a document full of inaccuracies, mistranslations, and with a clear history of tampering and interpolation – over our Mesorah? If Yeshu was a Tzaddik, the NT clearly is not his record but is the imperfect creation of some who sought to elevate Yeshu to deity (G-d forbid). It is far better to abandon that Greek atrocity and draw closed to the Tzaddik through his own words in Likkutei Moharan.